Navigating global talent shortages with James Bricknell of Bradford Jacobs

Coming through COVID and out the other side, we're still seeing trends that seventy percent of employees are seeking either remote working or hybrid working environments. So we're seeing really, the big trend is very much that, and it's opened organizations up to understanding talent pools are available now and accessible anywhere around the world.

You're listening to the Global Workforce podcast with me, George Britton.

Each week, we interview an industry expert to dive deeper into the world of managing a global workforce and discuss the big strategic challenges that you're going to encounter along the way.

This episode is brought to you by Omnipresent, the global employment platform that allows you to employ anyone, anywhere without having to set up an entity.

Designed, built, and supported by global employment experts, Omnipresent takes care of your international employees and contractors, so you don't have to worry about payroll, HR, or compliance issues, making it easier, faster, and safer to expand internationally.

My guest today is James Bricknell, head of consulting at Bradford Jacobs, an international business expansion consultancy focused on simplifying the journey for organizations entering new markets.

With two decades of experience in consultancy, salary benchmarking, and global workforce management, James is ideally suited to talk to us today about how to actually identify which countries to choose to help your organization expand.

Welcome to the Global Workforce podcast, James.

Thanks, George. Nice to be here.

Fantastic.

Well, let's jump straight into it then, James. You've got a huge amount of experience in this space. I wanted to firstly get your take on what are the main drivers that you typically see behind companies who want to go international?

I think that we we see probably three core drivers at the moment.

One is cost reduction. Now that we're in an environment where workforce generally is predominantly working remotely, it gives people that option of looking at cost reduction.

The other is sometimes skill shortages. So in certain markets, skills availability drives the need to actually look outside of that market. And then finally, the obvious one, I guess, is expansion into new markets where businesses are trying to increase revenue by penetrating new markets.

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. It's something that we obviously see similar trends to. I'm curious to get a take on have you seen these trends evolve over the last, few decades? Have you seen things change with the you know, after the last few years of, you know, the widespread adoption of remote work? How are you seeing those kind of the drivers behind this this expansion market change?

Yeah. I think we I was asked a similar question recently, actually, and and it's an interesting market that we're in at the moment.

Obviously, you your business working in employer of record, and as we look at generally expansion into new markets, What we've seen is is less reliance on location and more flexibility.

We've also seen we saw saw that as a short term reaction to the advent of COVID as an example.

But coming through COVID and out the other side, we're still seeing trends that seventy percent of employees are seeking either remote working or hybrid working environments.

So we're seeing really, the big trend is very much that, and it's it's opened organizations up to understanding talent pools are available now and accessible anywhere around the world.

Yeah. That's that's really interesting. I think that certainly one of the, one of the changes that that was driven by the pandemic was the well, you know, with the lockdowns and then the adoption of remote work. My feeling is, and you'll you'll know this better than me, is that pre pandemic, the one of the main drivers for looking internationally might have been, cost reduction, whereas nowadays, it's it's, I think I'd say two things.

There are still many companies that aren't aren't still, even after all of this, aren't aware that they could hire great, great talent internationally.

But also it's more about it's more about finding great talent as opposed to finding great talent at a low cost.

Would you agree with that, or would you, Yeah.

Absolutely. I think I think, generally, the demands on business intensify and and with advance in technology that, you and I over the years have seen consistently, the development of new technology. Obviously, at the moment, everybody's talking about artificial intelligence as an example.

As different skills are required, then all of a sudden organizations identify that certain markets have shortages of those skills.

Therefore, that drives the need to look in into international markets to access the best skills in the market and give them a better competitive advantage.

Yeah. That that makes total sense.

So one of the, areas where you have a lot of experience, James, is in is in salary benchmarking, and I'm curious to get your take on how important that is for clients when they look at expanding into new markets. Can you give us some examples of where this is either made or broken a company's expansion plans?

Yeah. Absolutely. I I think as we touched on earlier, one of the things that you we you continuously become aware of is that organizations and their level of awareness is is far more limited than you and I or you or I would anticipate when we're first talking to a business that's seeking to expand. Obviously, budgets being set by the finance organization within a business can prove to be quite onerous when they actually enter into markets and suddenly appreciate all of the costs that are incurred in those markets.

So different markets have given different reactions.

Sometimes you look at the employer costs in certain markets that people don't appreciate. I've seen American organizations who have chosen to headquarter their business in Europe, in Zurich as an example, where they feel that corporation taxation is a major advantage to them without appreciating the level of cost in terms of salary implications in that market. So one of the American businesses I was working with a couple of years ago had literally made that decision. And when we looked at the, cost in comparison to London, it was seventy percent more expensive than London, which they, on the on first sight, said this can't be the case, but, ultimately, it led to the business really having to have a rethink on their strategy because budgets were blown out of the water immediately when they started to take onboard the cost implication.

So I think the most important thing, whether you're looking at salary bands or any other elements of international expansion, is first of all, having market market understanding.

So basing decisions on fact rather than supposition.

That's super interesting. I really find that that, example of setting up a a location in Switzerland versus, London quite interesting. So that was a company that that looked purely at corporation tax, and that was the deciding factor for where they're gonna set their top co. But then when they went and did the full analysis, they realized that actually when you think about not just the salaries that you'd have to pay people, the talent available in that market, and also the employer cost, which is another factor, then actually, it was actually much more expensive to to open into it. And despite handling the old corporation cost.

Absolutely. And and and why was that a big issue? Because they'd already committed. They'd registered in Zurich. They'd acquired a property in Zurich. They'd decided this is where we're basing our headquarters.

They made the first few operational hires that were probably not too dissimilar to the cost base that they were anticipating.

But then as they started to gear up and look at the full talent that they required for the organization, that's the point at which they suddenly, started to understand our budgets are no way in alignment with what we were anticipating.

Yeah. That's super interesting, isn't it? Just taking one piece of the jigsaw and thinking that you've got the puzzle. There's a lot of other factors.

Absolutely. And one of the other factors I wanted to get your take on was culture. Now, as much as the cultures might be quite similar in between, let's say, Switzerland and and the UK, there'll be some, there'll be some different factors as as well. Right?

So, how do you help clients think about local cultures and factor that into their recruitment process, for example?

It's a it's a really good question because it's something that, proves prime when you're talking to different organizations.

As you and I are aware, we're working with companies from different parts of the world. And when you're dealing with an organization in China as an example and you're looking at the European market and how they can access that market, The cultural diversity between the two markets is vast.

So quite often, with a Chinese organization as an example, there is a temptation that Chinese companies will test the market. So they'll look to hire on the basis of, let's see if it works. If it doesn't work, we can always withdraw.

You'll also find that sometimes they anticipate that the hiring process should work in the way that a Chinese organization works. So quite often where we've engaged with Chinese businesses, part of the process has been educating them to understand the difference in culture.

And I think one of the big challenges that a lot of large organizations, be it from China or or different parts of Asia or even the US face, is when they start to look at the European markets as an example, they don't appreciate the level of diversity of both culture, language, and different legislation that exists across all of the different markets.

So cultural diversity and understanding is probably one of the prime elements that we work on to ensure that they're making an informed decision whilst taking on board that this will be a very different culture to that that they're used to working in.

Yeah. A hundred percent. Makes a lot of sense.

Something you mentioned earlier was one of the key drivers, of companies expanding internationally was about talent shortages.

And that's obviously, quite a big topic. And, you know, if you want to it's it's very easy to have some sweeping statements about this, but if you wanna actually find the answer, which is, like, where should we look for our next, you know, person within this role, that's a that's quite a difficult difficult, question to answer. Right? So, how do you try and think about helping clients to to balance that talent availability and the cost in the in the markets?

Yeah. One of the things that we do, in the first instance is it's always important, obviously, to understand from the client first and foremost, what is it that's driving the expansion plan or the change in their approach to their workforce management? Why are they looking to access international markets?

And if it is about talent shortages, it's then their understanding of those markets.

We've had clients, and I had a client very recently that literally said to me, we're focused on two markets.

When we questioned them why, he said, well, I've heard that there are good people with these skills in this market. So almost on hearsay.

What we start to do in the first instance is actually map the market for them, gives them an understanding of what are what volume of skills exist, where, what level of competition exists, and therefore, what is the anticipated hiring rate. Why is that important? Well, it can be important in terms of attracting the talent that they need in the first instance.

But even more so, it can be important in terms of pertaining that talent.

So if I give you an example, we engaged with an organization in Malta in the iGaming industry who actually said to us they were looking to hire a specific position, and they said we're seeing a trend.

We're seeing every time we go to the market to hire, it becomes increasingly difficult.

And every time we make a hire, the tenure is becoming shorter, and the cost is becoming higher. The salaries are becoming inflated.

So we carried out an analytics for them on that market, and what we discovered that was quite stunning to the client was that there were as many job adverts in the market as there were people, literally.

Very small market.

Malta is not a vast, country in its own right. So the number of people that had the skills were very, very limited, and the number of adverts meant that people were leaving almost as quickly as they were joining businesses.

The average tenure, and it's probably the worst I've seen in a market, was six months.

So somebody was joining a company and then choosing to move on. And sure enough, when we started to look at salary banding, we discovered that this is in this is in create, created an artificial inflation on the salaries in that market.

Soon as we started to look on a pan European basis, the volume dropped in terms of job adverts, the availability of talent increased, the tenure, therefore, increased, and we were able to triple the tenure on average with the talent that we were looking at, and the salary bands also dropped. So just through understanding the market and the behavioral patterns they were experiencing, we were able to save them cost, increase the rate of hiring, and also increase the period of tenure. So with that vital period where you're investing into an individual to educate them about your organization and gain benefit from them, they were able to then retain the staff beyond that point and know that they've got the security of good staff at the right level of, of cost to them as an organization.

That's super interesting. I I can't imagine being in a market where you've got as many job adverts as you've got people people to actually take their jobs.

And what you're saying there takes me back to my year one microeconomic, classes of classic supply and demand, isn't it? Like, you just you unlock you you you increase the supply and you increase the talent pool, and all of a sudden, you've got, you know, much more much more opportunity there.

I think that's Absolutely.

Absolutely. And I think it's the advent of you know, we've seen the growth in the market so that for services like employer of record as an example. And I think the lack of education in those solutions and understanding what that actually means an organization can achieve keeps that business mentality incredibly limited, and therefore, people are still thinking, this is my market.

Therefore, this is where I need to hire. Now many of the roles that we work on and many of the organizations that we speak to, those roles can be achieved working on a remote basis. And the moment that the organization starts to adapt its outlook, all of a sudden, it means that the expansion capability is vast, both in terms of capturing some of the best talents in the market and also doing that at an economic rate in markets where maybe the salary is not are not so inflated.

Yeah. It makes a lot of sense.

I wanted to get your take on, kind of some of the examples of mistakes that you see being made. And, actually, one of the things that you mentioned there was making making decisions based on hearsay, and I wish I could say that I've never done that, but I've definitely made that I've definitely made decisions based on hearsay. I think I even mentioned to you a few months ago, I'm looking at hiring this market because I heard of this, that, and the other. But I'm curious to get your take on, some of the most common or biggest mistakes that companies have made. You mentioned that Switzerland example. Have you got any others you can share with the audience?

Yeah. We've got we've got a number. I mean, we've we've looked at, we've looked at Asian companies who have expanded into Europe, and a great example was an Asian company that were expanding into Europe.

They felt they informed us that they had an entity in the market they were choosing to develop into, and it was actually here in the UK that they were looking to develop.

At the point of hiring, they then said, oh, we need to issue a business to business contract, which the individual wouldn't accept.

At the point that the individual didn't accept it, they said, okay. What are the options available to us? So we looked to employer of record.

And within that, we outlined to them National Insurance contribution.

They immediately said, well, surely, he'll pay that, which we had to explain that meant that he would take nearly a twenty percent reduction on salary. And they said, well, it's not affordable to us. So I think sometimes lack of education, lack of understanding, and lack of prior market analytics means that organizations are trying to undertake projects of work that can't be delivered based on time, cost, and quality because the decisions that are being made on budgets, the decisions that are being made on timeline are actually being driven by supposition as opposed to hard data, which is where we look to give them that data and ensure decisions that they're making are well founded.

Yeah. I totally totally understand that. I've definitely been in situations where I've gone down a, you know, down a particular route, decided to hire a certain type of role in a certain country, and then you find out later on that actually is probably you're probably trying to find needle in a haystack there, and you should probably look elsewhere.

It's I guess it's that upfront decision making and, you know, there is actually a cost in terms of time and effort and resource and focus that goes into these things, and you wanna make sure you get that decision right before you embark on, on a new profile. Right? Yeah.

And I think a really interesting, a really interesting take that somebody once, gave to me a long, long while ago in the recruitment industry was, if you're hiring a business developer or a salesperson, how much revenue do you lose for every week that you haven't hired them?

And it's an interesting, analysis to carry out. If you've got a revenue target on a twelve monthly basis and it takes you three, four months to hire that resource, how much revenue have you effectively lost through not being able to attract the skill? Now with sales, it can be market specific quite clearly, but we see organizations at the moment that are actually losing business based on the fact that their current business model doesn't take advantage of all of the talent that's available and the variation in cost from one market to another. So American IT Service Companies is a great example at the moment where we've worked with a couple that they're looking at the local markets in the US. And at the moment, the cost of strong IT skills in the US market is incredibly inflated.

Now those businesses are then having to put forward a tender to international businesses, and sometimes they can't afford to be competitive because of that cost base in the US market, and they lose the business.

Having an understanding of what skills are available in other international markets, sometimes at far more economic rates, means that, commercially, they become more competitive.

They can still achieve strong levels of profitability, but they can win a larger proportion of the business that they're tendering for based on understanding where that talent is available and at what cost.

Yeah. And presumably, that's a huge up a huge operational advantage for especially for services based companies where, you know, your margins are highly dictated by the cost of delivering the services.

Absolutely. Especially when you can find people within the same time zone, probably that speak the right language and have have really good skills within within those areas. There's huge opportunity there. Right?

Yeah. And, again, it's about market understanding. So sometimes organizations don't appreciate where those time time zones exist. They would they will in some instances, but even more so when it comes to language. You know, we've seen American organizations and and and lots of businesses are doing this at the moment. They look to take advantage of the salary ranges in the Asian market when they're looking at some of their functional requirements such as customer support.

Sometimes the language barrier then becomes an issue to their clients, and we've then moved the opportunity for them based on utilizing things like employer of record, as an example, to South Africa, where all of a sudden in South Africa, the cost base is almost mirrored to the Asian market, but the grasp of language is far better for their customer base. But even in looking at that market as an example, George, if you look at the South African market, you also then have to take account of different regions where power outages become problematic.

So, therefore, having an understanding of the market in terms of what it can offer to you needs to be balanced with some of the challenges in those markets to make sure where you're citing the requirement to build a team is accurate once again, and I know I keep repeating myself, based on data and prior market understanding.

Mhmm. Hundred percent.

So, James, one of the subjects that you've written about in the past is about autonomy when entering new local markets. I guess we touched on this a little bit, but I wanted to get get your take on why that's so important and and how you can go about building that.

Building autonomy in in terms of can you put that into context for me?

Yeah. So, building autonomy when you're entering a a local market. So how do you how does that market kind of how should you think about having a a new market, operating independently or in partnership with the existing markets that business might be might be operating in?

I think it comes back to the same model that we discussed earlier. The first thing is to understand the business drivers and the culture behind those businesses.

So to be frank, some of the organizations that we work with, their culture is not necessarily to allow autonomy.

I remember doing some work in Japan as an example, and we're pulling in all the all parts of the world in the conversation, George. But I remember doing some some work in Japan where one of the Japanese VPs I was talking to gave me a fantastic example of Japanese philosophy.

He said if you if you come across a stone bridge, most people would assume that it's been there for many years, and therefore, it's safe to cross. But in Japan, we take out a stick and tap it first because everything in Japan is about checking and making sure that everything is correct before we move forward. So I think the first thing that has to be considered when you're looking at working autonomously in a market is, does it fit to the culture of the organization at its core? And if it doesn't fit to the culture, then looking at how you adapt the model and the talent that you hire.

If you're going to work autonomously in a market, it's about the the talent that you hire and the talent that you need to target. So you need to consider the level of trust that needs to be given to that individual and ensuring that you're able to invest that level of trust to operate that level of autonomy.

Sometimes that then comes into another area of service provision that we all advise upon, which is looking at relocation of talent. So sometimes somebody will look to relocate a senior executive from their organization to establish the autonomous division, set the culture, set the tone in the reporting mechanism before they then unleash and allow more autonomy in the marketplace.

But it's understanding the cultural diversity that enables that autonomy to be delivered. Because, obviously, culturally, from one part of the world to another, it can be hugely diverse, And therefore, they need to understand and appreciate that there needs to be a certain level of flexibility against the culture of the market that they're moving into.

Yeah. A hundred percent. I totally agree with that. I really like that analogy of tapping the bridge with the with the stick.

So let's say we've got somebody listening now who's saying, look. I've got I can see the bridge. I wanna tap it.

Who what are the where are the areas to tap? Who who should be involved in that kind of, that upfront process?

I think there should be a number of people. So first of all, the strategy's been established that they're looking at developing into a new market. We referred to earlier the fact that we need to look at what the drivers are as to why they're they're developing into that market.

We then need to engage normally with the HR department because they'll be able to give us more information on the organizational culture so that we can look for matches against that culture, taking into account the diversity in the market.

We then need to be looking at the finance department and understanding what are the budgets to be set for that market, and are those budgets being set based on a model that exists within the parent organization and the parent company, or are they taking into account the cost base within the local market? Because as we've already established, they can be hugely differing.

We also then need to consider from a legal perspective the legislative requirements.

Because from one country to another, legislation can have a huge impact on the way an organization will be able to not just hire, but also retain staff, or should the worst come to the worst, the disciplinary process to release staff who are not delivering the level of performance that was anticipated.

So I think there are a number of areas of an organization that need to be engaged in order to make the final decision, and everybody needs to be entering into that decision based on clear understanding of what the commitment is both financially, culturally, and legislatively.

That's a huge word for me to get my tongue around this morning, George.

Hundred percent. I think but I think it's really, really important. Right? There are so many companies.

And and, honestly, it's impossible to know all of the legislation implications of all the different countries around the world. And every time, we talk to clients about certain countries that they're hiring in, there are always things that are you know, even people within, the European Union, you know, different countries operate in very different ways. And understanding that upfront might actually guide you towards hiring a certain market, but actually excluding other markets. So I'm curious to get your perspective on that a bit in a in a bit more depth.

Are there certain markets that, for example, client for example, clients might not hire in or avoid based off of legislation?

Yeah. I think I I think it would be wrong to say they should avoid those markets based on the legislation because all, obviously, the local market legislation is established to suit the local culture and the local view on the way that they engage. So there are certain markets in Europe that we look at, Sweden, France as an example, where the markets are very heavily weighted towards the employee, which means that from a legislation perspective, it can make it challenging for international organizations.

And I guess probably the biggest contrast as an example would be I had an American client who were looking to expand into Europe. And because France is a large market, they thought that's where they would begin their expansion by hiring people in the French market.

Now the contrast between employment legislation in the US and the the legislation in France probably couldn't be more diverse.

You know, you've got a market in the US that is a fast moving market where people can be terminated from contracts in fairly short periods of time, very heavily weighted commercially towards, certainly from a sales perspective, performance standards, and working patterns to a market in France where the legislation restricts the speed at which you can terminate a contract, and the legislation very much guards on the side of the employee.

Neither market legislation is wrong quite clearly. All of them have their place culturally within those local environments.

But sometimes when a business is considering that international expansion and certainly that first step into an international expansion, Having prior market knowledge ensures that they consider the the diversity of legislation as part of their decision making because it can be perceived as being completely foreign. You'll excuse the term because it's obviously a different region, but it's something that's completely foreign in terms of their working patterns. And therefore, it it needs to be a strategic decision that this is something that we can cope with, where we have members of a team that will be working in one market and members that will be working in another market that is actually measured under totally different legislation and totally different standards.

Yeah. I totally agree with you here. And I think that contrast between, like, you say an American company hiring in France or vice versa, like, the two completely opposite ends of the spectrum, but also two countries with very close links in, economic terms and, you know, flow of trade and things like that.

Something I wanted to get your take on is the importance of having a local partner as you get embarking on some of these, some of these initiatives. Like, how important is that in your mind?

I think it's hugely important. I think the first first thing to do and and the most important driver, I've labored the point all the way through, but making a decision based on data rather than supposition is the most important element. But then when you start to look at engaging into a local market, what is needed then is the local cultural understanding.

I remember working with, a Chinese company who was seeking to set up a large expansion program in the Netherlands.

And one of the things that they were looking to do was hire people because of the nature of the site that they were looking to develop. They were looking at eight different European languages.

And part of the conversation we were having was, if these people are to actually review content and engage with people in those languages, can we look at people in Holland who are Dutch who happen to be German speakers?

And the challenge was no because they need to understand the sense of humor, the terminology.

They need to understand the grammatical differences between somebody who comes from Germany and somebody who comes from Holland.

And as you start to look at these elements, it becomes even more important that you're then engaging with a local partner who has that base understanding of what is the cultural difference. If a line is delivered where we talked about the Japanese market as an example, if that level of caution exists, is it an individual who is expressing a lack of interest in joining a business, or is it an individual that is actually taking the cautionary approach?

They see the bridge, but they still need to tap it with the stick.

So as you look at different markets, having a local partner gives you that base that local level of understanding and really fills the picture. I think what we're trying to portray in the podcast in general, for or or in the conversation, George, is really if you're looking to expand into an international market, there are many different facets that will impact on that expansion.

You would never put to get start to paint a masterpiece if you didn't have a clear vision of what that masterpiece should look like. And if you're a business and you want to extend into a new market, you need to have that clear visibility over that market.

It starts with understanding data so that it when you're actually making the decision, you can make it on well founded data that tells you the skills exist, the talent pool is present, the availability is there, and the cost is something that's affordable.

Then it moves towards the legislation.

And the final part of the picture is then the cultural elements, the things that will actually impact you once you've built a team that you need an understanding of. And that's where the local team really comes into its own because the local team have that local cultural understanding and the application to be able to ensure, operationally, you can succeed understanding that local market.

Yeah. It makes total sense. And you can reach out to see how all of these pieces come together.

I wanna talk to you a bit about the about the creating a masterpiece and the long term vision in just a second. But before I do that, one more kind of micro question that that I think is certainly comes up a lot for us, and that is benefits. How do you think about that in the context of helping companies to understand, all of those other pieces that you just mentioned?

I think, again, it's huge a huge consideration. I can kind of pull on the Chinese example that we we spoke about earlier with Holland. You know, in the Chinese organization that we were working with, they had a great benefits package for their employees.

But what came as a surprise to them was that that if you go into the Dutch market place, whilst they anticipate a strong level of, of benefits availability to them, what they actually have a preference towards is having a figure that they can then choose the benefits and decide where they wish to invest and maximize the benefits that are important to them. So I think it's a case of looking at the organization and understanding there are going to be a huge array of benefits that are requirements in certain countries. You know? We we live in a country where the health service is something that is is something that is readily available to us, and, therefore, we're probably not so focused on private health care. But if we're working in the American marketplace, we know it's fundamental to somebody in the American marketplace that they need that health care provision for themselves and for the family.

So I think an organization needs to understand there has to be a level of flexibility and that some of the benefits in local markets will need to be very specific to that market and the culture of the people that they're they're seeking to employ.

Yeah. A hundred percent. And that's one of the most common things that comes up is companies from one area of the world certainly, places like Western Europe where everything's taken care of pretty much by by the state and then going to somewhere like the states or or India or somewhere else that where where you really need to have a competitive benefits package. Otherwise, the employees just ain't gonna ain't gonna sign the dotted line. Like, that's a real Absolutely. Important factor. Right?

Perfect. I wanna talk a bit about the, long term expansion strategy.

So if you put yourself in the shoes of a of a CEO right now looking at scaling internationally, how would you think about taking the long term view? How do you think about, you know, envisaging that masterpiece before you then start picking up the paintbrush?

Yeah. I think the first thing is, to understand what's driving the expansion and understand what it is that you're looking to achieve.

So quite often, when we're talking to clients who are seeking to expand internationally, sometimes into one additional market, sometimes into multiple markets, the starting point is always why.

Why are we looking at this model? Why is it that we're deciding that we need to develop business in new markets?

The second thing to then question is how.

How are you going to expand into those markets?

Then as you start to look at those elements and you look at the strategy that's driving it, you look at, how and and what it is they're seeking to achieve, what we then start to do is structure the plan. And as we start to structure the plan, that's really founded on data.

So first of all, it would be nice to expand into this market. Why would it be nice to expand into that market? Is it that that market is rich with opportunity for your business?

Is it that you perceive that the cost base there is going to be more economic?

So starting to build put all of those pea pieces together starts with understanding the data around those markets. Do the skills exist?

Yes. The skills exist. What is the level of competition?

What are your competitors doing in that market? Are they hiring? Is there other signs of growth? Because that's a great indicator as to what the the reality is in that market.

Then starting to look at the cost base because the cost will always have a huge impact.

Having put all of those pieces together, you can then start to pick up your your paintbrush and say, now I can start to fill in all of the gaps. And I think it's fundamental that in the first instance, we're understanding the why.

And then once we understand the why, we can start to explore what are the opportunities.

And we've had businesses, as an example, George, where we've worked with, organizations who develop technical capability for different markets. The adult entertaining in this entertainment industry as an example.

We weren't working specifically with those businesses, but the businesses that build the technology that enable those platforms.

And a business where they were looking at how do we start to develop a data center in a different location where we can get the timeline to match within reason, but we can drive down the cost and increase the quality of hire. So look to get more bark for your book, to use the common term.

Their consideration was prime looking at Israel because they know that the Israeli market is very, very strong for IT skills.

When we then started to do a cross market analysis and started to skill to salary band, they suddenly realized the cost base there was prohibited in comparison to many markets in Eastern Europe, as an example, where the same level of talent was available with the same level of expertise.

It just happened that the timeline was even more of a match to them as an organization.

But if they hadn't carried out those analytics, the basis of their strategy would have been flawed because they'd have looked to expand into a marketplace where their budgets would have been blown apart.

So I think if you're going to paint the picture, make sure that you've got the complete picture before you pick up the paintbrush so that you can be truly reflective of what exists in the marketplace.

Makes total sense. Yeah. I've learned so much on this on this call. I think we've touched on a few different areas, actually a little different areas, but one of my key takeaways is to is to make sure you it's all the the I'd use that, Japanese analogy of tapping a bridge with the stick. In my mind, it's measured twice, cut once, is the Absolutely. Phrase.

What would be your final thoughts, Cecil, if anyone's listened to this? Where where should they start if they're embarking on this journey?

I think where they should start if they're embarking on the journey is as all businesses will, they'll have a strategy.

Once they have a full appreciation of the strategy, either have the ham the answers to the question why.

They then need to seek some professional guidance and support to understand the how, where so that they can actually have the full picture in front of them before decisions are made. It's very, very frequently the case, and I'm sure in your business as well, George, when it comes to employer of record, the number of times that an organization say, this is what we've decided to do, And then all of a sudden, they they come to appreciate how cost prohibitive certain markets are. Certain markets have employer contributions that even when we do salary bands as an example, we're giving a gross salary, an indicative gross salary into each market. But what then needs to be considered, what are the contributions for the employer over and above?

Because some markets, it can be up to a fifty percent contribution on top.

Without taking those considerations, that's when it becomes prohibitive. That's when it becomes flawed, and that's where people fail. So I think the first thing is the business has every right to develop its own strategy and understand the why. But once they've got the answer answer to the question why, engage with an organization that can help you to understand the how and the where.

Makes total sense. James, it's been great to speak with you today. If people want to find out more, what's the best, way for them to get in touch?

Number of different routes. Obviously, I work for an organization called Bradford Jacobs.

They can, if they go to the Bradford Jacobs website, they'll see instantly many sources of information so they can start to educate themselves on different markets. And equally, they'll also see access points so that they can email different people with different areas of expertise.

And equally, George, as we both know, we work closely together. So in talking to somebody like Omnipresent as the first point of contact, we're working in partnership, and we can support an organization if they need any gap filling in terms of market understanding and education.

Fantastic. James, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

Pleasure speaking to you, George.

Thanks for your time.

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